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Bloggers #41, TomB's new epic, Gangs of New Eden

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 24 post(s)
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.08 06:53:00 - [1] Edited by: James Duar on 08/11/2006 06:56:07 After having read the comments here, I agree with the contention that this is in fact a terrible idea. The ability to manage a squad is being tied to in-game skills - WTF? The ability to do this is tied to your real-life skills and there's no way you can compensate with whatever boosts you want. Furthermore, it really does make no sense to have the bonuses limited to the leadership roles. The bonuses themselves don't make sense being limited to the leadership roles. Armored Warfare? The bonus is akin to the one guy who's really good at managing how your ships armor behaves. He doesn't have to the leader. If he is the leader then he shouldn't be watching my armor because he's supposed to be calling targets and managing the fight. I'm really completely failing to see how this change is bringing anything to the game. It seems like needless complexity that won't actually address the problem of making fleet fights more interesting while severely nerfing the flexibility of who leads a gang, and the process of formation of one. EDIT: To add some more RL context to how senseless this seems - an AEGIS cruiser can coordinate the air defenses of a large group of ships to shoot down enemy aircraft as I understand it. But it does not lead a carrier group. --- Recently returned from vacation on a sunny planet in 0.0. Guess which one!
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.08 07:36:00 - [2] This whole thing is far too convoluted. I say completely rid the skill requirements for this altogether - they're retarded, and make no sense gameplay-wise. Re: support skills, I'm failing to see how as they are currently can be causing so much overhead. Gang forms - support skills get put into a list, list gets summed, effects are applied to all. When a ship dies, the list is checked to see if it's on it, and an update is done to the entire gang. There is no "each ship checks every other ship" behavior necessary here. I really don't see how this is an O(n^2) problem. --- Recently returned from vacation on a sunny planet in 0.0. Guess which one!
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.08 09:02:00 - [3] The problem is, we're going to have to live through this before it gets changed back to something useful. I don't have this reaction often, but this is looking like one of the changes to which there is no "adapt" mechanic - you just die. I'd like to hear an explanation as to how gang bonuses get applied on the server now, compared to how this will save server time and reduce lag. At the very least, the bonus givers should be independent of the squad leaders. And to make this work at all anyway, there has to be some way to actually protect ships in fleet combat from being called primary if they're going to have to be on the frontlines. I can't help but think this whole thing doesn't seem very well thought out. --- Recently returned from vacation on a sunny planet in 0.0. Guess which one!
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.08 09:17:00 - [4] Why is not being there, when the skill is Armor boosting, not make sense? This is EVE. We have FTL communications everywhere. Why can a module which is basically a dedicated co-processor to the pod pilot not provide the same support from at least the same system? Well, I could invent some reasons, but I think my main issue is simply that there's no Line Of Sight or anything like that in the game, and so what we've got is a system where all the single command ships go down first, and then you've got a mad scramble to keep promoting people to even try and keep it working, in the midst of a fight. If the issues with no type of LoS at all in a fleet battle were fixed, then this would not be so bad because you have a chance to screen and protect smaller ships with bigger ships etc. --- Recently returned from vacation on a sunny planet in 0.0. Guess which one!
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.08 09:34:00 - [5] Originally by: Alex Harumichi Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 08/11/2006 09:23:42 Originally by: James Duar ...so what we've got is a system where all the single command ships go down first, and then you've got a mad scramble to keep promoting people to even try and keep it working, in the midst of a fight. Dunno, that sounds like real-life warfare to me. If the commanding officer is killed, there is a mad scramble to figure out who is next in line to command. Real-life comparisons are always dangerous, of course, but that makes total sense to me. And brings a new strategic element to EVE warfare, which is good imho. Now FCs will have to decide whether enemy commanders, EW ships or something else get called primary first. Choices choices. Added: it would be nice to have an automatic promotion list in the game, of course. So that if the FC is killed, there would automatically be a second-in-command who would become FC. I think auto-promote is simply a must, if only for lag reasons. Incidentally, I wasn't implying I'd die from not getting gang bonuses, I said that the change didn't seem like one where we'd adapt and get used to it and find some new type of awesome at all - usually I can see that though maybe I think something different should happen. This...this I can't see that for. Anyway, regarding the real life comparison - well it wasn't one there. I mean, if the real fleet commander dies in a battle, you do have a problem in battle because they're not on the front line anymore giving directions. But we've got, on top of that, this added mechanic that bonus giving doesn't work. It seems more akin to having the medic leading the squad of troops. I can't help but think that what's going to happen here is, a whole bunch of people with command ship/bonus abilities will be made leaders, and Teamspeak will be used so someone else is actually driving - OR - the whole logistics/gang-assist aspect will disappear entirely since they'll always die within seconds in a fight. I think the latter is much more likely. --- Recently returned from vacation on a sunny planet in 0.0. Guess which one!
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.08 12:00:00 - [6] Edited by: James Duar on 08/11/2006 12:15:22 Originally by: Tundaar Originally by: Shamis Orzoz If it is too difficult for you to code efficiently, then here's a simple solution: Just let the gang leader manually pick which player to be used as the "highest" gang bonus for each gang module. The commander knows who is the best, and if he doesn't, then oh well. Sometimes humans are the answer to your coding woes. Shamis It seems in this thread that the primary point of contention is that the Command Position and the Logistics bonus are linked in one person. Question to Developers: Can there be two positions assignable within a Gang - Commander and Logistics Support? (could be one person) This would eliminate the majority of complaints registered here about wasted SP and too much of a gangs functionality being invested in one person. It would allow a commander to focus on leading and controlling a battle using the new functionality while the Gang bonus could come from the designated Logistics Officer. This makes infinitely more sense since it makes putting a gang together simpler. An FC starts it, calls out for logistics and chucks them into right tiers to support people. --- Recently returned from vacation on a sunny planet in 0.0. Guess which one!
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.08 13:08:00 - [7] Hmm on re-reading the blog it looks like you'll still be able to make gang assist boosts work from safespots within a system, but currently the cost appears to be the ability to actually lead i.e. warp gang around the place. --- Recently returned from vacation on a sunny planet in 0.0. Guess which one!
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.09 02:38:00 - [8] Edited by: James Duar on 09/11/2006 02:42:50 What's needed here is: support skills are completely separate roles at every level. leaders exist solely for calling targets and using warp gang to get around none of this requires any new skills to use. If this is done, then the supporters, while needing more of them, aren't shoehorned into some nominal leadership position and can safely focus on not getting caught in their SS's away from the main battle (which will be tougher thanks to new scanning). We don't add new skills for leadership or support, because support have trained extensively already and leading a gang, as a skill you have to have IRL, is not something which should thus have to be trained in game as well. This would fix 90% of the complaint against this sytem. EDIT: ALL mining related skills and bonuses should be changed back to work for gangs. --- Recently returned from vacation on a sunny planet in 0.0. Guess which one!
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.10 00:04:00 - [9] Originally by: Eriv Kendri Boohoo - you cant easily park your afk command ship at a sspot now and run your 6 gang mods with impunity. How bizzare of CCP to want leadership skills and leadership modules to actually be associated with the leaders. Ok, first of all, yes you can and this is almost exactly what will happen. You just can't properly have someone else lead the actual gang since all the leadership abilities get tied up with boosting skills. Second of all - new scanning. My god new scanning. SS gang boosting should get harder anyway with new scanning and actually serve to reduce the size of fleet battles since you need to go hunt down those boosting ships. Third of all: in what EVE have you been playing where any ship that does something useful for the entire squad is not going to be called primary and die within seconds? Hell, with the new abilities, conceivably it'll be really easy to guarantee everyone knows which ship to call primary. --- Recently returned from vacation on a sunny planet in 0.0. Guess which one!
James Duar Merch Industrial	Posted - 2006.11.10 08:09:00 - [10] I don't see how what you're saying relates to the change. The change is going to make simple blobbing up really hard. The argument is that it's not actually making fleet fights better so much as just making them more complicated to run effectively. --- Recently returned from vacation on a sunny planet in 0.0. Guess which one!

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